Humans need connections. And relationships are one way that we foster growth and connectedness. In this episode, Dr. Patty Ann Tublin talks about connections and the human touch with Tony Rose. Tony is the founding partner at Rose, Snyder & Jacobs and has helped entrepreneurs grow and protect their assets. Tony looks back at his experiences as he talks about how connections help people grow in their professional and private lives. Be inspired by Tony’s journey and learn how you, too, can use these lessons to transform yourself.
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Empowering Yourself Through Connectedness And Relationships With Tony Rose
I have as our guest one of my favorite people of all time. He reminds me of the person that acts like a dog and barks but he’s as sweet as a cuddly bear. Make sure you like, comment, share and subscribe to this show. I am going to tell you a little bit about our guest, Tony Rose. He is the Founding Partner of Rose, Snyder & Jacobs. They are a staple firm in LA and the San Fernando Valley. Originally, it was Tony’s firm. He started it with his mentor, Mary Snyder.
He is an incredible champion of women past, present and in the future. He helps entrepreneurs and high-worth individual families to tax minimize what they pay. If you want a person that is probably the smartest person in the room, has the utmost integrity, character second to none, you are going to want Tony Rose in your corner. Buckle up because he is about to take us for a ride.
Welcome, Tony. Thank you so much for being on this show. Tell us a little bit about your story and how you got started. It is a fascinating story of growth. You are a true champion of relationships in your personal life, for your clients and with your employees. I would love you to speak to that because it has differentiated you from the pack.
I was engaged when I entered college with my high school sweetheart. I was going to be a history teacher. I wanted to be a history teacher. I love information. I was getting ready to get married. I was nineteen years old. I went to the counselor at the University of Southern California where I was going. She said, “You need to take some electives.” “What will I take?” “You can take anything you want.” “How about accounting? I don’t know how to balance my checkbook.”
I don’t know if anybody anymore balances their checkbook. In those days, you had to balance your checkbook against your bank statement. She said, “That’s a good idea.” I went into one of those. I go on the computer and I can see what checks have cleared and have not cleared. I know what’s going on with my checkbook. I don’t balance my checkbook anymore.
It’s because you don’t have a checkbook.
I do have a checkbook right back there. I changed my major to Accounting because I took that first elective class and the instructor I had was not even a professor. He was a man by the name of James Pratt who had come from the public accounting industry. He was on fire and he loved accounting. It made sense to me. It was easy for me.
The power of relationship is more powerful than money.
I have always been a person who wants to do things easily. I changed to accounting. I became an accountant, got married and off I went. I was originally an auditor at a place called Grant Thornton. It was before it was called Grant Thornton. It was called Alexander Grant & Company. I was crappy. Remind me to discuss with you the rule of crappy at some point in time because that’s important for everybody.
I was crappy and they fired me after seven months. That was the greatest thing that ever happened to me. After seven months, I was fired, newly married, there were a lot of bills, with no job and I was scared out of my mind. I called my old accounting professor whose name was Jack Larsen. I said, “I’m out of a job. I don’t know what to do.” Jack said, “Let me get back to you.” I dropped a dime and he answered the phone.
For people reading who might be a little bit younger than us, dropping the dime, Tony’s referencing the old-school payphone. Continue.
I dropped a dime. He did not have to answer but he answered that phone. He said, “Let me get back to you.” He made a few phone calls and connected me to the rest of my life. I did not know it then. What I learned afterward is that the power of relationships is more powerful than money. That’s the lesson that you know and hopefully, the audience will understand. Relationship trumps everything. Can I use the word trump anymore?
Relationships trump money. It’s more important than money. Jack Larsen was a very interesting man. He was maybe one of the most hated faculty members on the University of Southern California campus. During the Kent State Era, which was 1970 some college students were killed by National Guardsmen in Ohio.
Four students were killed during a protest. It was blotching on history.
The university campuses did not erupt the way we have seen eruptions but people went on strike. It was a big deal. I and my friends invaded the faculty center at the University of Southern California. We did a sit-in.
I am learning a whole new side to Tony. He’s got a little bit of hippy on him. Keep going. I’m taking notes.
I was a short-haired hippie. Jack walked up to us and he recognized me because I had already been in one of his classes. He said, “I don’t understand what you guys are so upset about. Why don’t I take you to dinner? I want to talk about it.” He took us to dinner. It was a free meal. We went. I had steak and lobster in a place called the Los Feliz in Los Angeles. It was the greatest dinner I’d ever had.
We talked with Jack. He became very human to me and a good friend of mine. I became a friend of him and his wife who is still a client of ours. I will not charge her a penny for anything. This relationship created a snowball effect for me, going to the firm I went to. I met Mary Snyder who saw something in me and became my mentor, my trainer and eventually my business partner. All because of a sit-in at the faculty center of the University of Southern California and the power of relationships. I’m being longwinded.
I love that story. It’s not just because of what you described but it also speaks volumes to who you were as a student and a person. This professor who you said was one of the most hated professors on campus, you found a way to develop, to build a relationship with him. You have continued that throughout your career. Take it from there.
It’s always about relationships. For an accountant, losing a client is almost a lot harder than getting a client. It’s so inconvenient for people to change accountants. An accountant that smiles and acts as they care at all is pretty hard to let go of. I’m sure, in your relationship with your accountant, it would take a lot to get rid of them, even if that accountant stopped the relationship dead. You have to kick it to the side or it stays.
Some people are looking for bargains. If you get too expensive, they leave you. It is very painful to change accountants because of the relationship. There’s a very important concept that I write about in one of my books. It’s in my book called Say Hello to the Elephants, which is going to be republished called A Quadrant Thinking. We talk about something in a book called The Trusted Advisor.
It was a book that was written years ago by David Maister, Charles Green and Robert Galford. It talks about how to measure the different elements of a relationship that you have with a professional or anyone in your life. He said it was a matter of four different elements. The four elements of that are competency, reliability, intimacy and the concept of self-orientation.
The strength of a business relationship rests on the belief by the client that that professional cares about them.
In that, you can create a formula. If you would grade your perception of someone on a scale of 1 to 10 for competence, reliability and intimacy with that individual and then you divide it by a score of self-orientation. You get a trusted advisor and that terminology “be quotient.” I almost flunked dumbbell Math at the University of Southern California but I’m a very successful accountant.
What Math did you almost flunk?
Dumbbell Math.
Are you being sarcastic? What is dumbbell Math?
No. Dumbbell Math was the most elementary course in Math I could take to be able to graduate from university.
It’s called dumbbell Math?
It was like Math minus 101. Taxes are as much arithmetic as it is Math.
Before you go there, I want you to go back to what was number four.
Self-Orientation.
Say more about what that is.
Think of a self-orientation scale of 1 to 10. Ten being the most self-oriented, one being the least. I don’t believe anyone that you hire has no self-orientation. They would like to get paid if you hire them to do a job. Your college roommate who loves you, who cares about you and who you would hire and gives you an incredible discount, probably has a self-orientation of two.
The proverbial used car salesperson might have a self-orientation of eight. Think about those relationships. Any professional you would hire probably has a self-orientation of between 4 and 6. There are some professionals you hire whose answer to you is always on the side of, “Spend more money on me.” There are some professionals you hire who are trying to look after you but if you don’t pay them, they are not going to like you very much. That’s self-orientation.
I talk a lot in my books and in my podcast which is called Go Beyond Numbers, about the concept in Trusted Advisor Formula. It’s very powerful but that is all about relationships. If you get a sense that you can be intimate and tell people stuff, your sense of intimacy with them is high. If you think they don’t care about you and you don’t want to bother with them and they are just there to get the job done, it might be someone that comes to your house to fix something. They probably don’t care about anything but getting the thing fixed and getting out of there.
It’s very transactional versus relational. You touched on something I would like to explore a little bit more. In your podcast and books, you talk about intimacy in your trusted advisors. For the readers, plenty of people in the genius network are very smart people. There are many advisors in it. I have never heard anyone say anything other than flattering things about Tony, how trustworthy he is and how much he volunteers his time for others because he is relational. You said something important for you to talk a little bit more about because you don’t hear financial people talk this way. You talked about people being willing to share information with you. We know that most financial decisions are based on emotion despite what we think.
Sometimes I feel I have to throw out that caveat but you are right. You have learned and mastered the art of developing a relationship where you can create an intimate relationship with people. You have found a way for them to be able to trust you with their most vulnerable aspects of themselves. That vulnerability is key to becoming trusted. How do you do that?
I tell everyone in this office that there is only one question that a client. That question is, “Do you care for me?” The strength of that relationship rests on the belief by the client that that professional cares about them. If there is a belief by the client that the professional does not care, the relationship’s not very sticky. It’s very transactional. Getting back to the concept of actions and decisions, every decision is emotional. You might know everything about it, be able to get it all settled in your rational mind and have the capability to execute but anything you do, you have to want to do.
There are bodily involuntary responses but in the end, every decision is a volitional decision. It’s emotion. Everything is emotion. Even the IRS agent operates on emotion, perception and their reaction to their perceptions. Once you understand that, it helps you be tolerant of what’s going on around you rather than raging at the chaos. Don’t you think in this world, all of us find ourselves in chaos?
What grounds us is our connectedness to others in sharing our experiences. We are alone, but we’re also together in that connection of relationships.
Look at the incidents of road rage that are going on are quite alarming. That’s because of a loss of control but the very knowledge that there are things in this world we cannot control. What becomes grounding is understanding what it is we can control. What can we control? One thing we can control is the quality of our relationships with the people that we love, with the people that we respect and even with the people we hate. I play golf with a regular group of people whose politics are almost diametrically opposed to mine. We have a very nice time and we even talk politics.
Very few of us have good shots so we can’t say, “Good shot,” but we can talk politics and we love each other. The ability for us to respect each other’s political positions is something that we have forgotten. We can control how we react to others’ political positions. We can decide that people’s political positions are out of malice to us, which is untrue. It is all about them. If you believe it’s all about them then you can control how you react to them. That’s all about a relationship with yourself.
Continue because people reading this never expected this from a CPA. Go along that line. Go deeper into that because it is so true what you are saying. The way people react to us is about them, not about us but you can control how you react to them reacting to us.
I will share with the audience because if you go to my podcast, website or my Facebook, you will see that my wife of 51 years passed away. During the very tumultuous four-week period, I’m very grateful to Dr. Patty Ann because she helped walk me through this. She strapped me into the bobsled and the bobsled took me.
We went for a ride together. I would not want to take it with anyone but you, Tony. You were amazing.
I had the choice of raging against what was happening or controlling what I could control. Life’s a comedy. All of you are going to find the things that irritate you. If you can find the irony and the humor in it, it makes things a lot more livable. The things that you cannot explain, you cannot reconcile and you cannot accept. Accept is a bad word because you have to accept what happens.
You can’t even fathom it. What you are saying is, “If you don’t laugh, you will cry.”
I did. You also find humor in things. I had to go pick up the death certificates for my wife at the funeral home. As I was trying to navigate my way to the death certificates, there was a terrible accident that was blocking my path. I worked around the terrible accident. About a mile later, there was a huge traffic jam where three lanes turned into one and all the cars were backed up. I finally was able to make my left turn to get to where the funeral home was.
It took me about 45 seconds or a minute to pick up what I needed to pick but the world somehow makes it difficult. Everything is hard to do. That was so symbolic. I got the package of the death certificate. It would have been my 52nd anniversary on January 25th, 2022. I looked at the death certificate and the county puts a stamp on it, certifies it. She’s dead.
On that certification was January 25th, 2022. If you don’t find irony and almost humor in that, that my wife at 52 years, my relationship of 55 years that disappeared on Christmas morning was then acknowledged by the county of Los Angeles on my 52nd anniversary. I don’t know what does. This is not to cry but it’s understanding that there’s something that’s going on in the world that we don’t understand. What grounds us is our connectedness to others in sharing our experiences. We are alone but we are also together in that connection of a relationship.
The readers learned why I adore you. You don’t even realize it because it’s who you are. You can even see the irony in a loss. That’s because you live your life every day for others. You are always trying to help. I know how much you genuinely care about the people that you are connected to in your personal and professional life.
I was talking to somebody. We were talking about so many ways corporate America is so broken. I’m a diehard capitalist but you have the top CEO, not if you started the company but if you are named to the CEO position, say for a bank that you did not start and you are making all this money. At some level, there should be a multiple for what you may compare to your lowest employee.
You give somebody $10,000. You will change their life. Maybe their spouse does not have to go to work if they have young kids. They have a special needs child that can get special help. For the entrepreneurs like you that are the top dog in a company and most of the entrepreneurs I know would never have the green. You would never even think to say, “The lion’s share of this profit is mine and I will give you the scraps.” That speaks to your humanity. I’m not going to stop.
Your ability to make a choice is a series of everyday victories.
That’s pretty generous. I would be lying if I did not say that I certainly do what I do to make money. I am not a charity.
I’m not saying that. I’m not BSing. I’m not saying it took something up you but we are all working to make a living but you don’t look at it just about you. Prove me wrong. Go ahead.
This is so hard. I do everything I do for me. If I do something for somebody else, it’s because it pleases me to do it. It pisses me off if I do something because I’m told that I’m obligated to do it. For a lot of entrepreneurs that react in much of this political environment. They react because they are nice because they want to be nice, not because they feel obligated to be. They are generous because it pleases them to be generous, not because they are obligated to be generous.
The very definition of generosity has to do with volitional action. I am selfish. Everything I do is for myself because I’m choosing to do it. Maybe if I’m in Communist China, I end up having to do stuff that I don’t want to do. Thank God where we are in the place in the world we are. Most of the things we do because we choose. If we cheat on our taxes, it’s our choice. If we pay more taxes than we need to, it’s our choice. It’s all about choice. That has to do with your relationship with yourself.
I want to make sure that the readers understand that when you say everything you do for yourself, you do for yourself. That’s true for everyone. It’s the classic example of if you are in a plane, you take the oxygen and it’s going down. You put the mask on yourself first before you give it to somebody else. You choose to do it for yourself. You also choose to do for others. I have your bio here but I don’t even have to look at it. All the volunteer entrepreneurial work that you do, you choose to do for you because it makes you feel good doing for others.
I say it pleases me. I do it because it makes me feel good is a very good way to put it. Anyone there that is feeling they are living a life that they are forced to live, a quick change in attitude by saying, “I choose to do something different.” Choose to do something different, even if it’s a minor thing, even if it’s getting out of bed on a different side of the bed, even if it’s using a different pillow, even if it’s changing the order that you wash your face and brush your teeth.
You are choosing to make a change. That in and of itself is a small victory every day. Your ability to make a choice is a series of everyday victories. Here’s the other interesting thing. This gets to what I talked about earlier. Sometimes your choices don’t work out the way you want them to work out. This is the power of what I call the Rule of Crappy. It’s a concept that was revealed to me by a man by the name of Michael Bernoff. He’s a wonderful guy and had great concepts. The concept is simply this, the first time you do things and the choices you make, most often, maybe 90% of the time, it’s the worst you will ever do it. In fact, expect a result to be crappy.
If you know that you are going to do something, the results of which are likely to be crappy then what’s stopping you from doing it? In my life, I have stopped myself for the first 65 or more years in my life. I failed to do things because I was afraid I was going to be crappy at it. I’m not crappy at the stuff that I have done a couple of times.
Most of the time, I’m at least okay except putting. I cannot putt. The thing about the Rule of Crappy is it gives you permission to fail. I have permission to fail. I have done it plenty in my life. I also have permission to succeed. How many people do you know that don’t even give themselves permission to succeed?
Too many. Run with that. The Rule of Crappy, which I love, allows you to fail. You have cracked the code on this. Why do you think so many people are afraid to fail, to live their life, to take a risk and to take a chance? What are they afraid of?
Pain. When I fail, it’s painful. The question is, “How long is it painful?” The pain can be a little or long time. Oftentimes, the things that I delay doing because I’m afraid to fail to create low amplitude pain. It aches. It’s not painful. Sometimes the stuff that I fail at is painful but only a very small amount of time. People don’t like being in pain. The other thing is that people ask and answer questions. They ask and answer their own question when you have no way of knowing what is going to be in the future. “I know he’s going to be mad.” “How do you know?”
I know this cake is going to turn out crappy. Rule of Crappy. “Fine. Let’s bake the cake. Maybe we learn something different.” I never had to roast in my life a chicken ever. My wife passes away and a week or so after, I decide I’m going to look upon the computer how to roast chicken. I’m going to make myself some chicken.
I have a daughter who comes at night to make sure I’m able to feed myself, which is unnecessary but very nice. I did all this stuff. I got all the herbs out of the pantry. I mixed them up. I created a dry rub. I rubbed the thing, the olive oil and all this crap. I turned on the oven and preheated it to 400 degrees. I slipped it in the oven and I was proud of myself.
About 35 to 36 minutes later, my daughter gets home from work to pick up her dog. I talked to her about how proud I am. She says, “I don’t smell anything.” I said, “Don’t worry about it. It’s been in there for 36 minutes. At 40 minutes, I’m supposed to turn down the heat to 350 degrees for another 10 minutes. You let it sit. I have got it all wrong.
She says, “I don’t smell anything.” Got to be 40 minutes. The timer went off. I went to turn it down to 350. I looked in the oven and the chicken was not done at all. I said, “What’s going on?” She said, “You put it in the wrong oven.” I had a double oven. That was a painful, embarrassing experience but I will remember it forevermore, which oven to put what food in.
How did it turn out?
You have permission to fail, but you also have permission to succeed.
About 40 minutes later after she put it in the proper oven and she would not leave until she checked it out, it was okay. It certainly did not taste as sweet as if I had left it in the oven and even burned it but it was all done by myself.
I am going to introduce you to this thing called a crockpot where you can cook a chicken in a crockpot and it makes chicken soup at the same time but that’s a conversation for another day. I’m so struck by how you can find humor in a situation where you are forced to learn to do something that for 52 years, you never had to do. I take it that your wife took care of all the cooking. It speaks to not only the Rule of Crappy but also speaks to the growth mindset that you bring to all your relationships.
I also learned that if you mix colors and whites, put them in cold water.
The boys in college don’t know that because everything they wear is pink.
In this case, I have got a lot of dish rags that are now blue.
They are good quality dish rags, I’m sure. Tony, I have a couple of more questions for you before. I hate to let you go because I know you have a busy day. What is the number one lesson you have learned in your life that you want all the readers to know? They must know.
Beyond anything else, the Rule of Crappy is very important and the other power of relationship. I fully explore the power of relationships in a passage in my book that got published called Go Beyond Numbers about the concept of social capital. The concept of capital in accounting has to do with things that you own. What do you own in your world? You own things more than money.
I won’t get into all the other stuff but one of the things you own is your relationships. You own that. You can save and spend a relationship. You can let it mature. You can put thorns in it. It is yours to manipulate or be selfless. That’s the rule of social capital. I explore the concept of relationships and the different kinds of social relationships that you have.
I was going to ask people how they could find out and learn more about you. You have got to tell people how they can order that book.
You can go to Amazon. The book is called Go Beyond Numbers. You can go to the Tony Rose author page on Amazon and see all the books I have written.
This is not Tony’s first rodeo when it comes to writing books.
I also have a podcast called Go Beyond Numbers. I think it’s GoBeyondNumbers.com. You can always go to RSJCPA.com, which is the website for my accounting firm. You can connect to what I’m thinking and talking about. We try not to talk like everybody else in the accounting business. We are on one level, dinosaurs and on another level, very avant-garde in the accounting business. We know that our currency, our value is in the relationship, not on getting a tax return or financial statement done.
That’s the way you look at your work. It’s the prism through which you look at all your interactions in life. You took relationships and money and how you use that terminology. It’s all true how you can capitalize on it, spend it, waste it and go bankrupt. It’s brilliant. You are so progressive when it comes to this. In other ways, we might be dinosaurs but absolutely ahead of the pack. The last question is if you could speak to any financial person throughout history, anyone who worked with numbers, finance, business, who would it be? Why?
A financial person I would love to talk to Alexander Hamilton. He was a Renaissance man and very complex in many respects. I am sure on some level, he was a perfect jerk. He was passionate. One of my chief values is passion. There’s no sense in me doing anything if I can’t do it passionately.
I don’t know you to do anything not passionately.
This was a truly passionate man who was able to look at the world and make sense of it in a very different way than anybody else in his world. He was also selfish. He did stuff that made sense to him and was selfish for himself.
Did he create our current banking system or something?
The underpinning and principles of our current banking system are his stuff. The whole concept of capitalism was not his concept but how he implemented capitalism on a governmental basis was certainly his. He started the first banking system in the United States that was national in scope. The biography of Hamilton was very interesting.
You are old if you believe you are done. You are old if you believe you’re finished and there’s nothing new.
It also made it possible for me to understand when I watched Hamilton in the theater where everyone was coming from. It was a great show. Knowing Hamilton’s background and who the players were is very important. Hamilton would be a very interesting guy to talk to. I would want to smoke a cigar with Hamilton, have a couple of whiskeys and just see what he had to say.
I can see you doing that. When you think about Hamilton, in many ways, he was the quintessential Horatio Alger story in the States. He came as an immigrant. He was an entrepreneur because he created a system. He revolutionized some things. Nobody did it this way before. It stands still, at least at its core.
He was ever quite accepted. It was always a little outside the crowd is my sense of him.
He self-sabotaged a lot and died.
I don’t necessarily like talking finances with anybody. It does not rock my world that way.
You like the people aspect. Anyone that knows you know that.
I understand finances so that I can help people make sense of their world. I understand taxes so I can help people make sense of their taxes and make sure people don’t get arrested but it’s not a hobby of mine.
I will leave on this note if I may. You referenced this earlier. You have heard me say this before. Nobody will care about how much you know about anything until they know how much you care. That’s how you grew your business. You put people first and people feel that. In spite of all your losses and with your beloved bride of 52 years, you still have a life because you have capitalized on those relationships throughout your life. Perhaps you like to define yourself and lead with being selfish but someone who is selfish does not have the network of relationships that will help them through what you have gone through in the past and currently if they also were not givers.
I define old age, not chronologically but mentally. You are old if you believe you are done or finished and there’s nothing new. I’m not remotely done.
Tony is a lifelong learner and he has only just begun. That concludes our episode of the show. Tony did not disappoint us. Make sure you like comment, share and subscribe to the show and we will see you next time.
Important Links
- Tony Rose
- Rose, Snyder & Jacobs
- Say Hello to the Elephants
- Trusted Advisor Formula
- Go Beyond Numbers
- Go Beyond Numbers – podcast
- [email protected]
- https://www.Linkedin.com/company/rose-snyder-&-jacobs
- https://www.Instagram.com/rsjcpas/
- https://www.Facebook.com/rsjcpa
- http://23Checklist.com/
About Tony A. Rose
Tony is a founding partner of Rose, Snyder & Jacobs. For years, Rose, Snyder & Jacobs has been a staple in Los Angeles and the San Fernando Valley. Originally founded as Tony A. Rose Accountancy Corporation back in early 1976, by Tony and his mentor Mary Snyder, the goal from the beginning was to create a unique process that would benefit our clients. Shortly after it’s inception, Greg Snyder, Mary’s step-son joined the firm to create Rose & Snyder. In 1991 Jake Jacobs came on board to head up our Audit Department and that’s when we became what is known today as Rose, Snyder & Jacobs.
We have grown greatly over the years as modern-day ideas and technology have come in to play influencing the evolution of that unique process that was born back in 1976. One thing that has not changed is the diligent and professional attention we pay to our clients and their accounts. Our name partners wouldn’t have it any other way. A tradition started by our name partners and carried on by those who have joined us since.
Today Tony gives his clients tax and management consulting advice. He works with everyone from closely-held corporations, family owned businesses, partnerships and the high net worth individuals that own them. Tony has spent considerable time resolving the complexities faced by families of wealth. He introduced a technique he calls Quadrant Thinking® to his firm, a unique four-part process that helps bring clarity and structure to all categories of his client’s needs.
In addition to helping entrepreneurs and high-net-worth families with tax-minimization strategies for asset growth and protection, Tony also helps his clients more effectively grow their financial capital by first enriching their human, intellectual, social and structural capitals. He has released two new books on the subject and takes a deeper dive into this topic on his podcast Go Beyond Numbers®.
Tony is the author of :
Go Beyond Numbers: Surprising Discoveries About Successful Business
Five Eyes on the Fence: Protecting the Five Core Capitals of Your Business
Beautiful Grief: A Father and Daughter’s Brutally Honest Walk with Death
…and the host of:
· Go Beyond Numbers®, a podcast dedicated to exploring and discussing the successful strategies he presents in his book.
…and has presented at:
· Los Angeles Society of Trust Administrators, featured speaker
· California Institute of the Arts, featured speaker
· National CPA Health Care Advisors Association, past president & featured speaker
· University of Southern California Leventhal School of Accounting, featured speaker
· Keck School of Medicine, featured speaker
…and been a part of:
· American Institute of Certified Public Accountants
· California Society of Certified Public Accountants, member and featured speaker
· Bachelor of Science Degree in Business Administration with Accounting Emphasis, University of Southern California
· Jonathan Club, past first vice president & past treasurer
· Jonathan Club Trumball Award, award winner
· Legacy Wealth Coach®
· Certified Kolbe Method Consultant™
